Pradyot Debbarma: ‘There is a fundamental shift in the Hindu-Bengali voter pattern towards the BJP’

Sourav Roy Barman: You fielded 42 candidates in the recent Assembly elections. You got 13 seats. TMP has become the second-largest party in Tripura in a span of two years. Are you satisfied with the results?

I would have hoped that we got another four or five seats. There’s one more seat, for which we would have filed a petition in court because we feel there was malpractice done inside the counting hall. We hoped to get 15-18 seats, if there was a stronger wave. But 13 is not a bad number considering that the Communists won 11 seats, Congress won three, and the BJP is down from 36 to 32. We’re the only party, apart from the Congress, to have gained in the elections.

Manoj CG: The verdict suggests a complete division between the tribal and non-tribal votes in Tripura. Is that a fair assessment?

The division is not there. Why don’t you look at it this way: maybe there is a unification of the Hindu-Bengali vote towards the BJP. The same thing happened in West Bengal. Largely, Hindu-Bengalis voted for the BJP in West Bengal, and the Muslim votes were consolidated towards Mamata Banerjee. The tribal votes have definitely come towards me because we are a party which speaks largely for the indigenous people’s rights. Till lately, nobody expected a tribal party to fight an election without an alliance with any of the national parties.

Manoj CG: Who is your main opponent? The BJP or the CPM?

If you’re fighting for a movement, then you don’t have an opponent, you have a demand. If you’re fighting as a pure, thoroughly bred political party, that has no demand but political aspiration, then you are fighting as a political party. We are a movement, so we do not have any opponents. We have issues and we want these issues to be addressed.

Manoj CG: There have been talks of Opposition unity in view of the Lok Sabha elections next year. Are you willing to work with non-BJP parties?

If the BJP is not willing to listen to our demands, then obviously there are other ways of pressurising them. This could be one of the ways of pressurising the BJP.

But if the BJP is willing to concede to our demands, we will talk to them as well. Eventually, our movement is to give something to the indigenous people in the hills.

If the BJP is not willing to listen to our demands, then obviously there are other ways of pressurising them… But if the BJP is willing to concede to our demands, we will talk to them as well. Eventually, our movement is to give something to the indigenous people in the hills

Liz Mathew: Your party has a presence in 40 constituencies. You are still into identity politics, which has its own limitations. How do you see it going forward?

What is wrong with identity? As long as I’m not questioning or diluting anybody else’s identity. We have given tickets to people from other communities, who are not necessarily from the tribal community. We have given tickets to people across all religions, Muslims, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists.

Esha Roy: In the absence of either the BJP, CPM or Congress accepting your demand, is there any possibility of a post-poll alliance?

There should be a constitutional solution to our demand. When the government invited the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, the latter was asking for a separate identity, completely outside the Constitution. When the government talks to the National Socialist Council of Nagaland or United Liberation Front of Asom, they asked for sovereignty. Here, we are asking for a constitutional solution. Let all sides — the Congress, BJP and CPM — put their point across. The problem is, in the absence of any invitation or dialogue, how can anyone go unconditionally and agree to have an alliance, either in the Opposition or ruling?

Esha Roy: Did you look at the Bengali vote during this election? Now that you have performed so well, will you look at this constituency to expand your vote base?

It would be very incorrect for me to say that I’m looking at the Bengali vote. I’m looking at the Bengali people. Unfortunately, the Bengali people have been extremely deprived. They’ve been misled. Poverty in Bengali areas is as much as in the tribal areas. Just the people in the towns have actually prospered a little. The Muslims and our Bengali brothers and sisters, the SC community and the OBCs, we will talk to all of them and will definitely seek their support.

Esha Roy: Do you feel the absence of big Congress leaders across the Northeast was the reason the Congress voters felt neglected?

Elections were held in three states — Nagaland, Meghalaya and Tripura — where the Congress did not do very well. It cumulatively won fewer seats than TMP got in Tripura. They got zero in Nagaland, five in Meghalaya, and three in Tripura. In Meghalaya, half of the Congress is either with the National People’s Party (NPP) or TMC (Trinamool Congress). In Tripura, most of the Congress leaders are either in the BJP or TMP. Why do we need central leaders to campaign in Tripura when you have enough local strong leadership? At some point, the Congress alienated them. This was the same Congress which had big leaders like Hiteswar Saikia, SC Jamir, Captain Williamson Sangma, my father  Kirit Bikram Manikya Debbarma, Santosh Mohan Dev and Tarun Gogoi.

This culture of political violence happens only in areas where there is a lot of poverty and people are paid to commit violence. The best solution for this is not to accommodate such elements in either of the parties… I think it will take five-10 years for it to go away, and for our economic positions to come up

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Manoj CG: Rahul Gandhi just completed a cross-country yatra. Do you see the Congress reviving at the national level?

I spoke to Rahul, he’s a fantastic guy. He has been trolled so much that this was his own personal journey. I think he has gone into this phase where he is not bothered by all the trolls and the hate against him. This has done him a world of good, it has improved his image across the country. But for the Congress to revive itself, the party has to have a plan to revive its own structure.

Debraj Deb: Before the election, there was a lot of manoeuvring from the Opposition, especially the Left, that said they were ready for constituency-level compromises with the TMP. Has that not happened?

In most constituencies, there was no such understanding with the TMP, but the Left and Congress had an understanding. The Left votes were transferred to the Congress, but minimal Congress votes were transferred to the Left or the TMP. I have a very close relationship with the Congress. You can even call me Congress-esque in many of my politics. But the Congress traditional voters chose to vote for the BJP rather than the CPM or the TMP, which has a tribal face. It speaks a lot about the psyche of the Congress voter.

Manoj CG: Identities are a very important factor in politics in the Northeast. You still want Greater Tipraland. We see talks in Nagaland, and the Khasi-Sikh violence in Meghalaya. How do you frame this challenge?

I don’t think identity politics should be linked with violence. But it is very important to give due respect to your culture. The Sikh-Khasi violence is perpetrated because of certain political interests. With the Nagas, of course, there is internal conflict, but largely the Nagas are united for a better solution to their existence. It is very different from the Khasi-Sikh issue in Them lew Mawlong, Meghalaya. I studied in Shillong and know the city well. Tripuris are talking about the protection of our indigenous areas where the tribals are living in majority. We want a constitutional solution for people living in the Autonomous District Council (ADC) area. There are 36 villages, which fall outside the ADC area, which also need to be included.

Liz Mathew: While celebrating the victories, the PM said the results in Nagaland, Meghalaya and Tripura proved that the BJP is not anti-Christian or anti-tribals. What is  your view?

You can’t club all this into tribal, Christian and Hindu, there are many aspects to it. The tribals of Tripura are 85 per cent Hindus and they voted for us and not for the BJP. We got over 75 per cent of the vote share. The Christian tribals in Nagaland have voted for the BJP in good numbers. In Meghalaya, the Presbyterians and the Catholics have given the BJP two seats, that too from largely general-dominated areas. The Nagas have a sense of development because they rule themselves. Whether the money from the Centre is sent through CM Rio by PM Modi, it will still look like Rio has sent the money.

Sourav Roy Barman: You just described yourself as someone who’s more Congress-esque. If you were to join hands with the BJP, will you be comfortable with its brand of politics?

It is very difficult for me to work with individuals who have a very limited worldview and who judge people on the basis of  religion, caste and community. I also realise that you have to be pragmatic and you have to ensure that people’s requirements are met. I would probably be more similar to someone like Biju Patnaik than someone who blindly becomes an overnight bhakt and starts doing World (Cow) Hug Day on February 14. In Tripura, we grew up worshipping Goddess Kali, Chandima and Mata Tripura Sundari. Suddenly, we see a new culture of ‘Ganpati Bappa, morya’. Even as good Hindus, it is very important to maintain our local culture. Anytime there is a threat to the identity of Tripura, Bengalis, tribals, Muslims, Christians and Buddhists will always stand up for the idea of the old Tripura, where we do not discriminate in the name of religion or caste.

Sourav Roy Barman: A large section of the CPM supporters and workers have started saying that the TMP essentially ended up helping the BJP.

Do you know why we lost Killa Bagma? Because the CPM got 12,000 votes, that’s why we lost to the BJP. We came second. We lost Santirbazar because the CPM pulled in 12,000 votes, and we lost by 3,000 votes. We lost Pecharthal because the CPM pulled in 10,000 votes, and we came second. There are seven seats where, if the CPM had not put candidates, we would have won. In Killa Bagma, where we lost the seat by 1,700 votes, roughly 62 to 65 per cent of the tribals voted for us. They voted 25 per cent for the BJP and 10 per cent for the CPM. So, the CPM is number three in the choice of tribals for the vote. There are certain seats where the CPM or the Congress had no chance of defeating the BJP but they fielded candidates. The Congress voters went to the BJP, but did not vote for the CPM or Tipra Motha. It shows that there is a fundamental shift in the Hindu-Bengali voter pattern, whether it is in Bengal or Tripura, towards the BJP. By the way, I didn’t put up a candidate against Jitendra Chaudhary and maybe that’s the reason he won by 200-300 votes.

Sourav Roy Burman: RK Debbarma, from TISS-Guwahati, wrote in The Indian Express about how the Left, under Manik Sarkar, started erasing the history of the royal family from the body politic of Tripura by renaming certain places. To what extent do you think that is responsible for cultural anxieties among the tribal population?

To be honest, this is a personal matter and I do want to talk about the royal family. I have spoken to Jitendra Chaudhary and Sitaram Yechury. They don’t agree with many things that the Communists have done in Tripura under Manik Sarkar. If the Communists and the royal family need to have a healthy conversation, we need to drop our personal vendetta against each other and talk like two mature individuals. The humiliation of the royal family did play a big role in creating a psyche in the minds of the tribals — that they were trying to remove our culture.  Manik Sarkar did many things, which I think was his brand of chauvinism. We should give the Communists the benefit of doubt and say that this was not the view of the entire party, but an individual who was in the topmost position.

 Manoj CG: You  had meetings with the BJP leaders before the elections, including Himanta Biswa Sarma and Amit Shah. After the election, did any of them contact you?

I got calls from Sarma, Sudip Roy Barman from the Congress, Mukul Wasnik and all my old friends in the Congress to congratulate me. But I know what you’re asking. Nothing in terms of any movement forward.

Esha Roy: Since you started from scratch, how did you build your party over the last two years?

I’m not one of those rich raja ka betas who turns up from London and Cambridge and within two years becomes an MP. I joined the Congress in 2004-2005. I was in the block Congress. I was in the Youth Congress. I was a district Congress President. I was a State General Secretary, then elevated to working president, and then I was the AICC Secretary for Sikkim. Then I came back and became Congress president, I was in the Congress for 15 years. When I left the Congress, I knew how to run an organisation. In fact, if I was given a chance, I would have built the Congress in this manner and today, probably, the Congress would have been the largest party in Tripura, and not the BJP or the CPM. But the organisational general secretary Luizinho Faleiro thought I wasn’t good enough for him because I didn’t please him enough. That’s why I was let go.

Manoj CG: You could have directly communicated with Rahul Gandhi and told him about the problems you were facing.

When I left, Rahul was gone. After the Lok Sabha elections, he went off for six months. I came to know Priyanka after I left the party. I met her the day I was resigning. In fact, I told her that I am the Congress president and I will leave the party but not join the BJP. But I will defeat the Communists in the Autonomous District Council (ADC) elections and then you will realise what you’ve lost. The day I won the ADC election, she called me and said, “You were right and I understand what you said then. I respect you for what you said and what you followed later.”

Manoj CG: Was there never an invitation to come back?

No. If they cannot accede to my demands in writing, how can I come? For my personal affection and respect for the family, I can’t let go of what my people have rallied behind me for.

Esha Roy: Some prominent Congress leaders, like Jyotiraditya Scindia, have joined the BJP. You never considered joining the BJP?

I joined the Congress because my mother and father were there and I was very young and impressionable. But at this age, to completely take a 180-degree turn, and do what Scindia did, is something which will eat my inner conscience. I would probably prefer to remain independent or regional. For many people, politics is about power, post, money and position. Power, according to me, you can get if you have the love and trust of your people, which I have right now. Money is inherited and I have no qualms to say that my grandfather was a king and my father was the king for two years. They have left me wealth and property. I don’t think anybody sitting in Delhi understands the pain or position of the people of the Northeast, especially the indigenous people, so why should I listen to them on how to control my people’s fate?

Esha Roy: If your parents weren’t in the Congress, which party would you have chosen?

If I was 19, I would probably choose the Communist Party. Maybe, I wouldn’t have been in politics if my parents were not in politics. I should have been a musician or footballer or a chef. I’m an animal lover, I have so many other interests. I think I took to politics at a time when I thought it was the right thing to do. Now, when I’m doing politics, I feel that this is what my heart tells me I should achieve.

Sourav Roy Barman: You have already announced that you will not be active, you will not be giving speeches. Are you ready to hand over the baton of the party to someone else?

I won’t hand over the baton. I’ll restructure the party when the time comes and let the party choose a natural successor. But he or she cannot be from my family because if I start choosing my successor, their misdeeds will be passed on to me if he commits misdeeds.

Sourav Roy Barman: Ever since the results, we have seen clashes happening across the state. In many places, TMP and BJP workers have also clashed. Have you reached out to your supporters to rein them in?

This culture of political violence happens only in areas where there is a lot of poverty and people are paid to commit violence. The best solution for this is not to accommodate such elements in either of the parties. This also largely comes from three states — Kerala, Tripura and

West Bengal. In West Bengal, there are no communists left, it is the Trinamool and BJP. But the culture of violence has been passed on, it’s a legacy issue. It’s the same in Tripura. I’ve been in touch with the Superintendent of Police and the DG of Police. I urge people to not indulge in violence. Let’s not forget that the CPM and the BJP are both forces which do not have a tolerant point of view and that is where there is a big problem.

This is generational. I think it will take a good five-10 years for it to go away, and for our economic positions to come up.

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Why Pradyot Debbarma

In just two years since it was founded, Tipra Motha, led by Tripura royal scion Pradyot Debbarma, has emerged as the second largest party after the ruling BJP in the Tripura Assembly elections. The former Tripura Congress president has been voicing the concerns of the indigenous communities, and demanding for Greater Tipraland