‘With G20 presidency, India is an interesting partner on the international stage’: German Ambassador Philipp Ackermann at Idea Exchange

Shubhajit Roy: Diplomatically, India has done a tightrope walk in the Russia-Ukraine war over the last year and a half. India and Europe have not seen eye to eye on many of these issues. How does Germany see this situation?

When the Prime Minister (of India) says this is not an era of war and emphasises the sovereignty of a territorial state, you can see that the Indian side has a clear interest to safeguard the international order. Now, India has an old relationship with Russia. Both are militarily and economically linked, and therefore, every country has to find its own way to deal with the matter.

Shubhajit Roy: Germany depends on Russia for its energy security. With this diversification, is there a lesson for India?

Germany had to reduce its dependence on Russian gas and oil from more than 50 per cent to 0 per cent in just a few months. They succeeded in doing so by restructuring the energy mix. Can that be transferred to the Indian solution? Not exactly. If you have military connections and when you are buying military technology from a country, that is a long process. You just can’t stop it one day. I feel that the Indian side understands that it is never a good thing if you depend too much on one source.

Therefore, yes, we have learnt these lessons the hard way. India has the chance to  diversify gradually.

Putin miscalculated the unity of the West. And why did he miscalculate? Because in 2014, the West’s reaction was a little tame on Crimea. That made him believe that the West would not take such strong measures now

Nirupama Subramanian: Germany and many countries in Europe have been assisting Ukraine in many ways. What is the next stage in this war and how does it end?

We want this war to end as quickly as possible. We are waiting for an opportunity for both sides to talk and negotiate. I don’t see that coming very quickly because I don’t see any willingness from the Russian side to sit at the table. In diplomacy, there are moments when you can slowly move, somehow. The main responsibility is clearly with the invader. You have to sit down and find a way to negotiate. Will that moment come soon? I doubt it.

Anil Sasi: All of the things that you use to qualify the Russia-Ukraine dispute since February last year perhaps happened in 2014 as well. There was an invasion by a bigger country and territorial integrity was claimed. Was there an element of complicity in not having called that out at that time? Germany was in a position to do something but did not.

We came up with a lot of sanctions, there was a clear strain in the relations after Crimea was invaded. If we have to look at what went wrong, I think Russian President Vladimir Putin might have been under the illusion that his new land grab would not end in such a determination or decisiveness by the West. I think one should have made it more clear then that this was unacceptable.

Shubhajit Roy: Had the West pushed back more strongly at that point in time, 2022 wouldn’t have happened?

This is very difficult to say. Where did Putin miscalculate when he invaded Ukraine? First of all, he miscalculated the state of his own army. Then he miscalculated the resilience of the Ukrainian people. But the third point where he miscalculated was the unity of the West. And why did he miscalculate? Because I think in 2014, the West’s reaction was a little tame. That made him believe that the West would not take such strong measures now.

Sukalp Sharma: Ever since the war in Ukraine broke out, a lot of people in the European Union have been pointing fingers at India for increasing Russian oil purchases. But at the same time, the export of refined fuels from India to Europe has shot up. Similarly, when it comes to restrictions on Russian oil flows, it’s essentially on the seaborne Russian route, which affects countries like India but not so much Europe. Isn’t there some sort of a double standard when it comes to the kind of actions the G7 have taken against Russian energy exports?

We don’t finger-point at India. We have made it clear that this is a mainly European measure we have taken in order to stop being the faithful client on which Russia lives. There was no intention to disrupt the international oil market, it was a clear intention to cut off the long-term, well-paying European clients from Russian oil.

When you are buying military technology from a country, that is a long process. You just can’t stop it one day. I feel that the Indian side understands that it is never a good thing if you depend too much on one source

Kaushik Das Gupta: When India took its first steps in renewable energy, maybe about 12 to 14 years ago, Germany was the example to look up to. Now with this energy crisis happening, where does renewable energy figure in the energy mix of Germany right now? What kind of collaborations are you looking forward to with India on renewable energy?

Renewables are hugely important through this energy crisis. I think more than 50 per cent of our electricity now is produced by renewables. In Germany, this means mainly wind and to a certain extent solar. The private sector in India is extremely dynamic when it comes to renewables. We have partnerships and investments. What we have with India on the structural side is called the Partnership For Green And Sustainable Development. That includes money for restructuring your energy, among other things. Energy providers who want to have more renewables in their energy mix can get very good credit lines from the German government KfW Development Bank.

Aakash  Joshi: Between your first stint in India and now, one of the things that has changed is that foreign policy and diplomacy are very much a part of domestic politics. When you interact with leaders and the bureaucracy now, how do you see that affecting your interactions as a diplomat?

I think there is more interest in the Indian system for the world now. For example, when I was here last time, the European Union (EU) was something India didn’t seem so interested in but now it sees the EU as a strategic partner. My impression: International politics is much more on the agenda when you talk to the government or senior officials than before.

Aakash Joshi: Those sympathetic to Russia in India cite two of Russia’s arguments. One is that NATO expansion is a breach of the post Cold War promise. Second, in the global South, there appears to be a colonial, even racial bias in the West’s concern for the Ukraine invasion because European lives were at stake unlike, say, in Afghanistan.

I don’t understand this argument that you expanded NATO in 2002 and now, 20 years later, the Russians are taking 20 per cent of Ukraine, so you are the ones who are responsible.

Now on Afghanistan, I was dealing with the country for 10 years during which it was very much the focus of our attention. It was there in our media. The sudden withdrawal of the West from Afghanistan is perceived as a great failure in Germany. You can’t say there are double standards here because our engagement in Afghanistan was huge. But I think there are almost always double standards in international politics. There are conflicts that don’t get the attention they deserve.

Once you get Indians or others to Germany, you have to create an environment where their families can be happy. We will see more reflections on how to make migration successful

Shubhajit Roy: You were the Deputy Special Representative for Germany  in Afghanistan and Pakistan for several years. Where did the international community go wrong with Afghanistan?

I think we were over-ambitious in Afghanistan. After 2001, we started by saying that we should eliminate terrorism in Afghanistan and in two years, we ended by saying we should make Switzerland out of Afghanistan. That basically was not going to happen and we should have known. The big problem was that we didn’t include the Taliban early enough. The Taliban always had some legitimacy in Afghanistan and we knew it. But when the Taliban knocked at the doors about 2003, and said we want to be part of this group of people discussing the future of Afghanistan, theoretically, we should have said yes.  But after 9/11, the Americans were not ready in 2003 to let the Taliban in, which is understandable. I’ve always bought the American argument — for domestic reasons they weren’t ready. When we tried in 2010, there were overtures made and there were openings. But there was little result. It was too late  with the Taliban, which was never monolithic, but fragmented. The third mistake we made was to, in a very Western Cartesian way, say that the elected government was a good one. The fact is this government did not deliver what we thought it was supposed to deliver.  We wholeheartedly supported everything they did, more or less.

Devyani Onial: Germany has a large number of immigrants. The world over, particularly in Europe and the UK, immigration is a prickly issue right now, with debates over assimilation versus multiculturalism. How does Germany see this? Also recently, the far-right Alternative for Deutschland (AFD) won in a municipal election. Is that a worrying sign?

One of the consequences of this Ukraine war is that we now have 1.2 million refugees of Ukrainian descent. We have a record number of asylum seekers coming from all over the world. Therefore, there is the danger of an overstretching of the social system of Germany.

Having said that, Germany has a clear immigration policy, which is as such very welcoming. We have just passed a law in Parliament that is reorganising immigration, making it easier. So we are turning into an immigrant country, which has changed our mindset. We have never seen ourselves as an immigrant country but actually we have always been a very multicultural unit. Twenty per cent of Germans now have at least one non-German parent.

The election you are referring to has for the first time ever got a far-right extremist party into a public function. It’s a sea change because we haven’t seen this before, let’s see how it unfolds. People right now feel slightly overwhelmed by foreigners. There is an uneasiness or even discontent among many people with the government and this is expressed by this vote.

Shubhajit Roy: Is the migration mobility agreement one of the key areas that India and Germany have negotiated?

We have concluded this migration partnership. That’s the start of a more intensified look at how Indian citizens can come to Germany for good jobs and contribute to the German workforce. And that very deliberately also includes their families. We should be very clear that once you get Indians or others to Germany, you have to create an environment where their families can be happy. We will see more reflections on how to make migration successful. One thing, which for us is very heartening, is that we have 35,000 Indian students in Germany right now and I have 32,000 applications for the next two semesters or three semesters on the table now. So basically, we’ll see a huge number of Indian students coming to Germany. Soon, they will be the biggest group in a non-English-speaking country.

Nirupama Subramanian: In China, French President Emmanuel Macron made statements distancing himself from the conflict in Taiwan. Where is Germany on this issue?

The German government is now working on a China strategy. First of all, economically, China is, for us, indispensable. Second, it’s a competitor. The third and very important factor is that China is a systemic rival. We feel that this political system is a challenge. We, therefore, have to work with these three factors. This leads to what we call de-risking, what we had with Russia. That you don’t put all your eggs in one basket and that in a manifold way is true for our industries in China, too.

So the government is encouraging people to diversify. I think our business and private sectors are more interested in doing business in India. And that’s a consequence of this China issue.

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Shubhajit Roy: You’ve spent 10 months here and have at least another two to three years left. What are a couple of things that are on your must-do list?

Strengthening business ties is certainly on my list. Trying to get more investment from Germany to India, but also more Indian investment in Germany. High on my agenda is how to organise ourselves in a way that we can benefit from the skills India has and how do we get Indians interested in coming to Germany. Then there’s this partnership for greener sustainable development. Last but not the least, what  is very important is the regular exchange at the highest level. In that respect the Indian presidency of the G20 is a blessing.  I’m confident this will happen because India is much bigger on the German agenda than it has ever been before.